Which is why reality is ultimately always subjective. Like I said, objective reality is simply subjective reality persisting in a given direction; which in turn produces higher probability waves. The word "object" consists of Ob which means "to go against", "to be in opposition", "to be in a state of difference" and Ject (variation of Jet) which means "to throw", "to thrust", "to put forth".
You can see objects because of differences. If differences didn't exist, nothing can be perceived. Differences arise through changes of state. Changes of state are waves (actions). Actions are experiences which are subjective. Objective reality is therefore, ultimately and completely subjective.
The focus is not whether it is subjective or objective, the focus here is how an individual can contribute peace to the rest of the world.
Divine Love,
LightChannel
The concept of macro-microcosm is again a perception only as I believe- to small bacteria it is the exact reverse of us and what we perceive to be macrocosmic could be musicale for Nature.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Reality is not so much a case of macro / micro dynamics. It seems to be a case involving the mind's changing of state through time (which is non-local and is always active). Time isn't linear but spiraled. This ever changing state of activity is actually persistence itself (which is the present). You can direct persistence through self-action. The more persistent your actions are, the more probability they attain. Once they attain enough probability, they become perceived as objective reality (even though objectivity is ultimately subjective).
Mind is a reality at some level. Beyond some level mind does not exist at all. so by taking mind as a reference we are talking only one realm. Not beyond that. There is so much beyond mind.
The forces of Nature and spirit work the same irrespective of the view point of the observer, and if we're able to observe changes only in us and not at the level of organisations, races etc, it's our inability to do so.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
No. You cannot escape the
Observation Problem. Your mind can only experience itself (which includes its interpretations of things it classifies as "separate" and "outside" from itself). There is only one active force in nature, and that is the mind (which is always in a state of action, activity). The mind is not the brain. The brain is a projection of the mind, just like everything else is. You see, the mind is consciousness itself. It is the Self.
Mind does not experience. The soul experiences though the mind. The mind is not the only force in the nature. There is much more than quantum physics. There are higher realities which quantum physics cannot explain.
Yes, mind is not the brain. And mind is not the projection of the brain. Mind uses brain to manifest or to operate. Mind is not the physical entity, brain is the physical entity. mind is not conscious of itself. Soul uses mind to operate in this reality. Mind has conscious, sub-conscious, and unconscious states. And it does not switch by itself between the states; it is the awareness of the soul that operates at various states of mind to experience various realms. So there is much more higher truths than the mind. And mind is not the ultimate. There is no mind beyond a point. Mind is not the self. Self uses the mind as a tool to perceive and operate.
Thus collective human consciousness has a specific spiritual condition.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
There is no "collective" consciousness. There is only ONE consciousness, literally. This explains why you can only experience yourself while perceiving an "outside" world filled with people existing in the "outside". Even as you transcend to other levels of reality, you will still be experiencing via the Self.
There is collective consciousness. A family is an entity, it has a core, similary a state, a nation and global. At every level, core can be addressed. This is again huge topic for discussion.
To improve the spiritual condition of an individual, the individual has to make efforts. To improve the spiritual condition of a family, the whole family has to choose, similarly, at the level of nation and global. Ultimately it begins from an individual.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
There is no separation between you and what you perceive to be "out there". They are all within your mind. Only you can put in the effort. Only you can choose and feel and think and experience..
Some intend for peace, and some indulge in violence. Because the energy created by these conflicting intentions cancels out each other, the net result is what we see in the world. That’s why peace makers have not succeeded completely yet, they are yet to reach the level of critical mass. If 100 people thinking about peace and 1000 people indulging in violence how can we see peace out there? It is always the score that matters.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Yes it's all about numbers. That's what quantum physics is all about. Quantum means "amount". The bigger the amount, the more powerful the effect. However, this entire process can only be experienced by one mind because there is only one mind that actually exists. The 100 people you might perceive "out there" thinking about peace and the 1000 people you might perceive "out there" thinking the contrary are simply projections of your mind. They have no power at all. They are your projections.
You can say this is correct based on what quantum physics says. But again, quantum physics address this realm and the numbers we are talking is also in the same realm, so it may appear not contradiction. But there are higher truths which quantum physics cannot address.
So we can say that is If more number channel Light, the impact would be greater. If more number channel at the same time, the impact is faster.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Yes, but the difference is that you externalize these things, whereas I internalize everything and everyone. You postulate that there is an objective reality separate from the individual. I on the contrary, postulate that reality is ultimately completely subjective -- even objective reality itself (which is merely a reflection).
This difference does not really matter as long as we channel light.
understand that what I post is pure solipsism -- and this is likely depressing to accept at first. But once you realize that you are literally everything and everyone, and that everything and everyone is within your mind, then you can never truly feel alone again (even though you are all one).
The point is, philosophy is a theory, and spirituality is an experience. There is a vast difference.
I'll make this short and sweet instead responding to each and every one of your statements (which can actually be counter-intuitive). I agree with your message and its power. However, the only fundamental difference between you and me is that I internalize all of reality while you externalize aspects of it. You see I don't just believe in complete subjective reality, I know it cannot be disproved. Not once have you addressed the Observation Problem. No scientist, not anyone, can disprove it. Just like you, all who have been notified of it can only ignore it. But they (you) forever cannot disprove it.
Like I said, the Observation Problem is an irrefutable logical fact. The moment you even try to challenge it, your mind is already involved; which in turn only proves it. The fact that you're aware of this post only proves it. The fact that you're self-aware period, only proves it. My entire position on this thread revolves around this irrefutable Observation Problem. Unless you can disprove this natural constant, then your central thesis -- as much as I greatly respect it -- remains incomplete.
Quote:
The point is, philosophy is a theory, and spirituality is an experience. There is a vast difference.
No. You see philosophy, thoughts, objects, motion, people, theories, spirituality, religion, war, feeling, etc. and every potentiality in life are already quantitative experiences (because they already exist as quantity). They are all concepts. These concepts come in different ranges depending on the magnitude of their persistence. The more a concept persists, the more objective (obvious) the experience of it becomes. This is how subjective reality becomes "real" -- through virtue of persistence. The only effective difference that exists is the magnitude of persistences.
The only fundamental difference between you and me is that I internalize all of reality while you externalize aspects of it. .
Nope. I do not externalize the reality as the way you have mentioned. Both of us are addressing the same truth from two different angels.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
You see I don't just believe in complete subjective reality, I know it cannot be disproved. Not once have you addressed the Observation Problem. No scientist, not anyone, can disprove it. Just like you, all who have been notified of it can only ignore it. But they (you) forever cannot disprove it. Like I said, the Observation Problem is an irrefutable logical fact. The moment you even try to challenge it, your mind is already involved; which in turn only proves it. The fact that you're aware of this post only proves it. The fact that you're self-aware period, only proves it. My entire position on this thread revolves around this irrefutable Observation Problem. Unless you can disprove this natural constant, then your central thesis -- as much as I greatly respect it -- remains incomplete. .
Regarding the observation problem:
One important thing to understand at this point is, the observation problem that you are talking is not a problem. It has to be like that and it is designed like that.
We create an image about ourself and about others. And this image is nothing but what we believe about ourself and also others. All the life situations, people, events they themselves do not carry any meaning in them. They are neutral we attach a meaning to them based on our beliefs and knowledge that we have about them. That’s how we develop likes, dislikes opinions. When we relate to the other person we actually relate to the ideas, opinions in us, about that person not to the person itself. This is how a normal person interacts. But a Master relates to the other PERSON itself not to the ideas that he carry about that person. How this is possible? This is possible when we relate to the other person as a soul, or at higher level, beyond mantel structures. This is possible only when we relate to the other person from STILLNESS. In stillness we transcend this OBSERVATION PROBLEM. This exists in the realm of mind, and in stillness we transcend mind. We connect to other person deeply or we experience Oneness with the other person.
So Observation problem, let say is a challenge that we need to meet. There are lesions in that. That is necessary for the spiritual evolution of an individual. that’s why it is designed like that.
Spiritual science is the superset of the material/conventional science. Material science can address only a part of the problem, beyond that it cannot. We can understand truth only by spiritual means. So quantum physics is like a baby in front of the spiritual science.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Unless you can disprove this natural constant, then your central thesis -- as much as I greatly respect it -- remains incomplete. .
My thesis no way contradicts your observation problem. To understand this fact, missing dots have to be traced and joined. We are on that process.
Lightchannel wrote:
The point is, philosophy is a theory, and spirituality is an experience. There is a vast difference.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
No. You see philosophy, thoughts, objects, motion, people, theories, spirituality, religion, war, feeling, etc. and every potentiality in life are already quantitative experiences (because they already exist as quantity). They are all concepts. These concepts come in different ranges depending on the magnitude of their persistence. The more a concept persists, the more objective (obvious) the experience of it becomes. This is how subjective reality becomes "real" -- through virtue of persistence. The only effective difference that exists is the magnitude of persistences.
A philosopher speaks by his knowledge; a mystic speaks from his wisdom.
Knowledge experienced becomes wisdom. There is the catch.
Nope. I do not externalize the reality as the way you have mentioned.
You believe in a collective consciousness where there are masses of people on the "outside" world who must come together in common purpose to generate an effective result. I on the other hand, believe there is only one consciousness that exists where everyone that is seen on the "outside" world are but projections of this single consciousness. You believe in an external reality, I don't. That is the difference between you and me.
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Both of us are addressing the same truth from two different angels.
Indeed.
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Regarding the observation problem:
One important thing to understand at this point is, the observation problem that you are talking is not a problem. It has to be like that and it is designed like that.
I know it's not a problem. It's termed that way to address the ignorance of the conventional scientific community pertaining to Newtonian Law. The scientific community has long ignored this problem because it can't solve it (hence the term Observation Problem). Because they can't solve it, they ignore it, deny it, etc.
Quote:
We create an image about ourself and about others. And this image is nothing but what we believe about ourself and also others.
Our interpretations of others and ourselves are the only things we experience. We are totally living in a subjective world where we can never run into anything but our own interpretations of anything and anyone. You cannot separate the mind from the act of experiencing. Whatever you do in life, your mind is always involved. Even as you read this post, your mind is involved. Even when you try to deny (or accept) this universal truth of total subjectivity, your mind is involved. No matter what you try to post and respond with, your mind is always involved, period.
External reality is an illusion, a projection -- a maya in other words. It is nothing more than a program sustained by your Consciousness (your mind). Your mind is all that really exists. If you want to change reality, change your mind. You can't bend the spoon. You bend your mind, and the spoon (a projection of your mind) follows.
Quote:
All the life situations, people, events they themselves do not carry any meaning in them. They are neutral we attach a meaning to them based on our beliefs and knowledge that we have about them. That’s how we develop likes, dislikes opinions. When we relate to the other person we actually relate to the ideas, opinions in us, about that person not to the person itself. This is how a normal person interacts. But a Master relates to the other PERSON itself not to the ideas that he carry about that person. How this is possible? This is possible when we relate to the other person as a soul, or at higher level, beyond mantel structures. This is possible only when we relate to the other person from STILLNESS. In stillness we transcend this OBSERVATION PROBLEM.
No. You cannot transcend the observation problem. Even as you transcend, you will still run into this problem. Why? Because any experience requires a mind to experience it. You can never escape this universal truth. There is no "other" person, no "other" soul. Only you (the Self) actually exists.
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This exists in the realm of mind, and in stillness we transcend mind.
Stillness is still an experience. In order to experience stillness, Consciousness (mind) is still needed to experience it.
Quote:
We connect to other person deeply or we experience Oneness with the other person
That other person is still you, literally. He or she is a projection of the mind. Oneness is simply a higher level of subjective experience. No matter how much you transcend, you can never ever escape subjectivity.
Quote:
So Observation problem, let say is a challenge that we need to meet. There are lesions in that. That is necessary for the spiritual evolution of an individual. that’s why it is designed like that.
It is not the designed, but the designer. Everything in life revolves around this universal truth.
Quote:
Spiritual science is the superset of the material/conventional science. Material science can address only a part of the problem, beyond that it cannot. We can understand truth only by spiritual means. So quantum physics is like a baby in front of the spiritual science.
Quantum physics is actually a doorway to the spiritual sciences; for it is inclusive of consciousness, unlike the conventional / materialistic Newtonian sciences. String Theory and Unified Field theory are helpful as well, but they too, try to divert away from the irrefutable Observation Problem.
Quote:
A philosopher speaks by his knowledge; a mystic speaks from his wisdom. Knowledge experienced becomes wisdom. There is the catch.
Knowledge is already an experience in itself. The catch is persistence. With persistence (action -- which is curved and therefore has momentum in time aka the flow of the present), knowledge turns into a higher experience of itself.
Additionally, wisdom simply means "to see" (wisdom = variant of vision). You see, inner vision is all that is occurring in reality. What you see in the "outside" is only a more persistent form of inner vision. You already experience knowledge as it is. That experience only becomes more vivid when you persist it. Wisdom (vision) is simply the process of knowing. The mind experiences information (in-form-action).
Nope. I do not externalize the reality as the way you have mentioned.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
You believe in a collective consciousness where there are masses of people on the "outside" world who must come together in common purpose to generate an effective result. I on the other hand, believe there is only one consciousness that exists where everyone that is seen on the "outside" world are but projections of this single consciousness. You believe in an external reality, I don't. That is the difference between you and me.
Now we have reached a point, we must address the fundamental idea about creation and God to understand this point.
We are souls. Creation is not part of soul. Soul experiences the creation. But both souls and Creation are the parts of GOD Himself. God Himself Manifested as Creation and God Himself Experiencing the creation through souls. A part of God is creation; another part is souls. So God is not only the collection of souls, he is much more than that. Consciousness comes in to picture much later. Souls were there even before the creation emerged, before the Consciousness was born.
From the Ocean of Light, Consciousness emerged. The consciousness is the divine matter used to create the worlds, planets, galaxies, elements, everything “Out there”( the creation).
The Experiencer (soul) is much subtler than, what he is experiencing. Both Experiencer and the object that is being Experienced (Creation) and the experience itself, all these are aspects of God Himself. Experiencer is like a container for all the experiences that he obtained by experiencing the creation.
When you say "everything out there is the projection of the consciousness", you are right. When you say "everything happening “out there” is happening in me", you are right. When your Awareness is experiencing oneness with All THAT IS MANIFESTED AS CREATION OUT THERE, all those statements are very much valid. But that is not the end, there is much more beyond that. You can expand your awareness beyond the material cosmos, beyond everything “out there”. You are a container of everything that is happening “out there”, plus much more. You are not limited to the creation; you can go beyond everything “out there”.
But now, as a normal human being, our awareness is stuck at the level of body mind and intellect, so we experience the isolation from the rest of the world. We influence and get influenced by world.
When you look from higher angle everything is WITH IN you and you are everything. And when you look from this angle (human plane) everything appears as separate from you “out there”. So we have to shift From THIS level to THAT level. If we conclude that we are not separate from the world and keep quiet we do not shift from THIS level to THAT state. For that we have to begin from THIS level, journey has to be made. That’s why all this all this effort, the movement, bringing awareness etc.
Lightchannel wrote:
Regarding the observation problem:
One important thing to understand at this point is, the observation problem that you are talking is not a problem. It has to be like that and it is designed like that.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
I know it's not a problem. It's termed that way to address the ignorance of the conventional scientific community pertaining to Newtonian Law. The scientific community has long ignored this problem because it can't solve it (hence the term Observation Problem). Because they can't solve it, they ignore it, deny it, etc.
Lightchannel wrote:
We create an image about ourself and about others. And this image is nothing but what we believe about ourself and also others.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Our interpretations of others and ourselves are the only things we experience. We are totally living in a subjective world where we can never run into anything but our own interpretations of anything and anyone. You cannot separate the mind from the act of experiencing. Whatever you do in life, your mind is always involved. Even as you read this post, your mind is involved. Even when you try to deny (or accept) this universal truth of total subjectivity, your mind is involved. No matter what you try to post and respond with, your mind is always involved, period.
External reality is an illusion, a projection -- a maya in other words. It is nothing more than a program sustained by your Consciousness (your mind). Your mind is all that really exists. If you want to change reality, change your mind. You can't bend the spoon. You bend your mind, and the spoon (a projection of your mind) follows.
Now coming to the Mind:
Mind is not Consciousness. Mind is created from Consciousness. Mind comes much later in the picture. Consciousness was there before mind was created. (Conscious state of mind is different from Consciousness)
Body, Mind, Intellect are created from Consciousness, they act as tools to experience the creation in different realms. Five elements were created from Consciousness, using it in varied proportions.
Mind is used ONLY to experience and operate in material cosmos which is made up of 5 elements, not beyond that. To operate beyond the material cosmos (Divine Cosmos or Causal realm) soul has to give up mind, there is no mind there. Causal realm is the plane of thought, so Intellect is used to experience and operate in that realm. But as long as we are in this material cosmos we have to use mind.
The core of everything is Light. All creation is emerged out of Consciousness, which in turn made up out of Light. When soul wants to experience creation, it can see only the light behind the creation, not the grosser forms. Maya is a devise given to the soul to experience the creation. Maya shifts our awareness from subtler realm (Light ) to the grosser realm(forms), that how we experience, a mountain, a coffee, a feeling , a creative thought etc. Without Maya all these would appear as Light, nothing else. Maya is not the illation, it is necessary to experience this realm. The observation problem is nothing but the function of Maya. The Maya attaches our awareness in this realm. We can transcend Maya, by expanding our Awareness beyond body, mind, intellect, by entering in to Stillness. Stillness is not an experience obtained using body, mind and intellect. It is a state you enter when you transcend Maya. In absolute stillness, time space everything stands still. In stillness you are BEING yourself.
Lightchannel wrote:
All the life situations, people, events they themselves do not carry any meaning in them. They are neutral we attach a meaning to them based on our beliefs and knowledge that we have about them. That’s how we develop likes, dislikes opinions. When we relate to the other person we actually relate to the ideas, opinions in us, about that person not to the person itself. This is how a normal person interacts. But a Master relates to the other PERSON itself not to the ideas that he carry about that person. How this is possible? This is possible when we relate to the other person as a soul, or at higher level, beyond mantel structures. This is possible only when we relate to the other person from STILLNESS. In stillness we transcend this OBSERVATION PROBLEM.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
No. You cannot transcend the observation problem. Even as you transcend, you will still run into this problem. Why? Because any experience requires a mind to experience it. You can never escape this universal truth. There is no "other" person, no "other" soul. Only you (the Self) actually exists.
This is answered.
There are experiences beyond mind. Mind is involved only in material cosmos. Beyond which we have to give up mind. Observation problem is limited only to body, mind and intellect. When your awareness shifts beyond these, you are out of observation problem, because you are beyond time space matrix that is Stillness
Lightchannel wrote:
This exists in the realm of mind, and in stillness we transcend mind.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Stillness is still an experience. In order to experience stillness, Consciousness (mind) is still needed to experience it.
Stillness is beyond mind. To experience stillness mind is not required, in fact Stillness is going beyond mind and its content.
Huge literate on Stillness is available on internet you can refer to Eckhart Tolle, if you want to know more about Stillness
http://eckharttolle.com/stillness_speaks
Lightchannel wrote:
We connect to other person deeply or we experience Oneness with the other person
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
That other person is still you, literally. He or she is a projection of the mind. Oneness is simply a higher level of subjective experience. No matter how much you transcend, you can never ever escape subjectivity.
Yes and No,
No-He or She is not a projection of mind. He or she is a soul.
Yes- Subjectivity remains, but not the way you have mentioned. Soul remains its identity even after experiencing oneness with god. It experiences oneness with god but it will not literally merge. Hence in that context you can say subjectivity remains even at higher level of experience.
Lightchannel wrote:
So Observation problem, let say is a challenge that we need to meet. There are lesions in that. That is necessary for the spiritual evolution of an individual. that’s why it is designed like that.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
It is not the designed, but the designer. Everything in life revolves around this universal truth.
Designed is a part of the designer itself. This is addressed already. The three aspects of god mentioned earlier answers this point.
Lightchannel wrote:
Spiritual science is the superset of the material/conventional science. Material science can address only a part of the problem, beyond that it cannot. We can understand truth only by spiritual means. So quantum physics is like a baby in front of the spiritual science.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Quantum physics is actually a doorway to the spiritual sciences; for it is inclusive of consciousness, unlike the conventional / materialistic Newtonian sciences. String Theory and Unified Field theory are helpful as well, but they too, try to divert away from the irrefutable Observation Problem.
Not only Quantum physics, everything in this creation, can become portal to the spiritual science. That’s why it is said, even if you understand a grin of sad you will know the entire creation.
Lightchannel wrote:
A philosopher speaks by his knowledge; a mystic speaks from his wisdom. Knowledge experienced becomes wisdom. There is the catch.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Knowledge is already an experience in itself. The catch is persistence. With persistence (action -- which is curved and therefore has momentum in time aka the flow of the present), knowledge turns into a higher experience of itself.
Additionally, wisdom simply means "to see" (wisdom = variant of vision). You see, inner vision is all that is occurring in reality. What you see in the "outside" is only a more persistent form of inner vision. You already experience knowledge as it is. That experience only becomes more vivid when you persist it. Wisdom (vision) is simply the process of knowing. The mind experiences information (in-form-action).
It begins with gathering information. When we contemplate on the gathered information, it becomes knowledge. Knowledge when we put in to practice and we experience it our life, it becomes wisdom.
Mind does not experience. The experiencer is the soul.
This conversation won't end until one of us shows the will to move on to something else. It's a good conversation but it's becoming circular. Everything you continue to post is something that I already addressed earlier. If you want to read more about where I'm coming from, feel free to check: Time & Changes of State
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God Himself Manifested as Creation and God Himself Experiencing the creation through souls.
Uhhmmm, why does society like to refer to God as a male? In my opinion, it's like a deep-seated conditioned reaction largely influenced by patriarchal-based organized religions.
This conversation won't end until one of us shows the will to move on to something else. It's a good conversation but it's becoming circular. Everything you continue to post is something that I already addressed earlier. If you want to read more about where I'm coming from, feel free to check: Time & Changes of State
Yeah, it's a good conversation.
Sure, i will check out that link, i have gone throgh that to partially, i saw the videos on Observation problme, they were nice. Thanks.
2) Can Channnelling, Healing, Mass meditatons make some difference?? Dors the spiritual energies have any impact on induvidual?
Can this make some difference? what do you think. Also tell me, other alternatives and possibilites in bringing peace if any.
3) I would like to know your ideas on 2012, photon belt, and Transformation process occuring
Quote:
God Himself Manifested as Creation and God Himself Experiencing the creation through souls.
totalitariantiptoe wrote:
Uhhmmm, why does society like to refer to God as a male? In my opinion, it's like a deep-seated conditioned reaction largely influenced by patriarchal-based organized religions.
Don't take it too seriously, As of Now, God is happy with that.
I would like to know your ideas on 2012, photon belt, and Transformation process occuring
Could be true; only time will tell though. There's no doubt in my mind that Humanity will eventually evolve (energy - revolve) into the Light being state you mention. Even Quantum Physics doesn't deny that there's a transformational process pertaining to the activity of Consciousness. Max Planck and Arthur Young called this dynamic the Quantum of Action.
However my concern is that the totalitarian types who run this world behind the scenes have a global agenda which probably includes that date as a sort of "endgame" blueprint -- just like I believe what the bible is: Is the Bible a Blueprint?
While many global problems leading up to that date will arise in frequency, scriptural believers will point to their religious scriptures in order to justify these "revelations" as the "Word of God". Therefore they do nothing to expose the real perpetrators in power who are deliberately doing this. It's a huge puppet show as people at the bottom condemn each other while not knowing they're all being played.
Anyways, as for your links, I will study them when I have free time tonight. Regards.
